8-2802-8219-1

 

                       STATE OF MINNESOTA

                OFFICE OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS

 

       FOR THE MINNESOTA STATE BOARD OF TECHNICAL COLLEGES

 

 

In the Matter of Proposed Adoption

of the Rules of the State of Minnesota,              REPORT OF

THE

State Board of Technical Colleges,                   

ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUDGE

General Studies and General Education,

Minn. Rules Part 3700.1200 to

3700.1280.

 

 

  The above-entitled matter came on for hearing before

Administrative Law Judge Jon L. Lunde on November 30, 1993, at

9:00 a.m. in the Fifth Floor Conference Room, Veterans Services

Building, 20 West Twelfth Street, St. Paul, Minnesota.

 

  This Report is part of a rulemaking proceeding held pursuant

to Minn. Stat.  14.131 to 14.20 (1990) to hear public comment,

determine whether the Minnesota State Board of Technical Colleges

("the Board") has fulfilled all relevant substantive and

procedural requirements of law applicable to the adoption of the

rules, evaluate whether the proposed rules are needed and

reasonable, and determine if any modifications to the rules

proposed by the Board after initial publication are substantially

different from those originally proposed.

 

  Charles Mottl, Assistant Attorney General, Suite 1200, NCL

Tower, 445 Minnesota Street, St. Paul, Minnesota 55101-2130,

appeared on behalf of the Board.  The Board's hearing panel

consisted of Georgia Pomroy, License Specialist, and Helen

Henrie, Deputy Chancellor.  Twelve persons attended the hearing.

Eleven persons signed the hearing register.  The Administrative

Law Judge received twenty-seven agency exhibits and one public

exhibit as evidence during the hearing.  The hearing continued

until all interested persons, groups, and associations had an

opportunity to be heard concerning the adoption of the rules.

 

  The record remained open for the submission of written

comments until December 7, 1993, five working days following the

date of the hearing.  Pursuant to Minn. Stat.  14.15, subd. 1

(1992), five additional working days were allowed for filing

responsive comments.  On December 14, 1993, the rulemaking record

closed for all purposes.  The Administrative Law Judge received

one written comment from interested persons during the comment

period and one written comment during the reply period.  The

Board also submitted post-hearing comments responding to matters

discussed at the hearing.  The Board did not propose any further

amendments to the rules.

 

  This Report must be available for review by all affected

individuals upon request for at least five working days before

the Board takes any further action on the rules.  The Board may

then adopt final rules or modify or withdraw its proposed rules.

If the Board makes changes in the rules other than those

recommended in this Report, it must submit the rules with the

complete hearing record to the Chief Administrative Law Judge for

a review of the changes prior to final adoption.  Upon adoption

of final rules, the Board must submit the rules to the Revisor of

Statutes for a review of the form of the rules.  The agency must

also give notice to all persons who requested to be informed when

the rules are adopted and filed with the Secretary of State.

 

  Based upon all the testimony, exhibits, and written comments,

the Administrative Law Judge makes the following:

 

                        FINDINGS OF FACT

 

Procedural Requirements

 

  1.  On August 27, 1993, the Board filed the following

documents with the Chief Administrative Law Judge:

 

  (a) a copy of the proposed rules certified by the Revisor of

      Statutes;

  (b) a copy of the Board's Order for Hearing and an Authorizing

      Resolution;

  (c) a copy of the proposed Notice of Hearing;

  (d) a Statement of Need and Reasonableness (SONAR) with

      supplements;

  (e) an estimate of the number of persons expected to attend

      the hearing and the expected length of the Board's

      presentation at the hearing; and

  (f) a statement indicating that the Board would provide

      additional, discretionary notice of the hearing to

      Technical College officers, curriculum staff, and some

      members of the Board.

 

  2.  On June 1, 1993, a copy of the proposed rules on general

studies were published at 17 State Register 2966.  On June 7,

1993, a copy of the proposed rules on general education were

published at 17 State Register 3045.  On October 11, 1993, a

Notice of Hearing was published at 18 State Register 1058.  The

Notice of Hearing cited the June 1, 1993 publication for the text

of the proposed rule on general studies and the June 7, 1993

publication for the text of the proposed rule on general

education.  An amendment to the proposed rule relating to general

studies license conversions is included in the October 11, 1993

publication.

 

  3.  On October 5, 1993, the Board mailed the Notice of Hearing

to all persons and associations who had registered their names

with the Board for the purpose of receiving notice of the

proposed adoption of rules by the Board.  This mailing included

those persons to whom discretionary notice was given.

 

  4.  On November 2, 1993, the Board filed the following

documents with the Administrative Law Judge:

  (a) the Notice of Hearing as mailed;

  (b) a copy of the State Register pages containing the Notice

      of Hearing and the proposed rules;

  (c) an affidavit stating that the Notice of Hearing was mailed

      on October 5, 1993, to all persons on the Board's mailing

      list;

  (d) an affidavit certifying that the Board's mailing list was

      accurate and complete as of September 27, 1993;

  (e) a copy of the Notices of Intent to Solicit Outside

      Information published in 17 State Register 1764 (January

      11, 1993) and 17 State Register 2521 (April 19, 1993); and

     

  (f) a list of persons on the Board's hearing panel.

 

Small Business Considerations

 

  5.  Minn. Stat.  14.115, subd. 2 (1990), requires state

agencies proposing rules which may affect small businesses to

consider methods for reducing adverse impact on those businesses.

In its Notice of Hearing, the Board asserted that the small

business statute is inapplicable to this rulemaking proceeding.

 

  Minn. Stat.  14.115, subd. 2 (1990), requires that methods

for reducing the impact on small businesses be taken into account

when agencies propose rules "which may affect small businesses."

"Small business" is defined in  14.115, subd. 1, as "a business

entity . . . that (a)  is independently owned and operated; (b)

is not dominant in its field; and (c)  employs fewer than 50

full-time employees or has gross annual sales of less than

$4,000,000."  The rules relate only to technical colleges.  They

are not small businesses within the meaning of Minn. Stat. 

14.115, subd. 1 (1990).  Therefore, the Board need not consider

the statutory factors for reducing the impact of its rules on

small businesses.

 

Fiscal Notice

 

  6.  Minn. Stat.  14.11, subd. 1 (1990), requires agencies

proposing rules which will require the expenditure of public

funds in excess of $100,000 per year by local public bodies to

publish an estimate of the total cost to local public bodies for

the two-year period immediately following adoption of the rules.

The proposed rules do not affect "local public bodies."

Therefore, the preparation of a fiscal notice is not required for

these rules.

 

Impact on Agricultural Land

 

  7.  Minn. Stat.  14.11, subd. 2 (1990), requires that

agencies proposing rules that have a "direct and substantial

adverse impact on agricultural land in the state" comply with the

requirements set forth in Minn. Stat.  17.80 to 17.84 (1990).

Under those statutory provisions, adverse impact is deemed to

include acquisition of farmland for a nonagricultural purpose,

granting a permit for the nonagricultural use of farmland, the

lease of state-owned land for nonagricultural purposes, or

granting or loaning state funds for uses incompatible with

agriculture.  Minn. Stat.  17.81, subd. 2 (1990).  Because the

proposed rules will not have a direct and substantial adverse

impact on agricultural land within the meaning of Minn. Stat. 

14.11, subd. 2 (1990), these statutory provisions do not apply.

 

Outside Information Solicited

 

  8.  In formulating the proposed rules, the Board published two

Notices of Intent to Solicit Outside Information: in January,

1993 and April, 1993.  See 17 State Register 1764 (January 11,

1993) and 17 State Register 2521 (April 19, 1993).  The Board

subsequently published its initial versions of the rules in the

State Register on June 1 and 7, 1993.  At that time, the Board

believed that it would be able to adopt the proposed rules

without a public hearing.  However, hundreds of comments were

received by the Board in response to those notices.  The large

number of comments and hearing requests received by the Board in

response to the June publications required a hearing.  In

response to the comments received following the June notices, the

Board made modifications before publishing the final version of

the rules.  By the time the Board published its final version of

the rules, nearly all concerns previously expressed had been

resolved.  The few remaining concerns are addressed in this

Report.

 

Objection to Reply Comment

 

  9.  On December 14, 1993, Roger A. Peterson, of Peterson,

Engberg & Peterson, Attorneys at Law, submitted a comment on

behalf of the Minnesota Federation of Teachers (MFT).  That

comment included a memorandum dated December 29, 1992, from

Dayton Perry, Director of Evaluation for the Board.  The

memorandum included the results of a survey to determine which

occupational programs offered in Minnesota technical colleges are

accredited or certified or require licensure, certification or

registration of graduates.  The Board objected to the inclusion

of this survey in the record.  Under Minn. Stat.  14.15, subd.

2, additional evidence may not be submitted during the second,

five-day comment period.  The survey is "additional evidence"

within the meaning of the statute.  Hence, it cannot be

considered.

 

Error in Mailing List Certification

 

  10. The Board staff certified the Board's mailing list as

accurate and complete on September 27, 1993.  The Board's mailing

to that list occurred on October 5, 1993.  The purpose of

certifying the list is to ensure that all persons whose names are

on the list on the day of mailing receive notice.  Although the

Board's certification of the accuracy and completeness of the

mailing list is technically defective, the defect is wholly a

matter of form.  When advised of the problem, the Board responded

with a letter asserting that no changes occurred to the mailing

list between September 27, 1993, and October 5, 1993, and the

mailing list was accurate and complete on the date of mailing.

 

  In 1992, the Administrative Procedure Act was amended by

adding a provision excusing harmless errors.  Minn. Stat. 

14.15, subd. 5.    Under the statute, in determining if

noncompliance is harmless, the Administrative Law Judge must

decide if any person was deprived of an opportunity to

participate and whether the agency took any corrective action.

There is no indication that any person or association who asked

to be on the list failed to receive notice of the hearing.

Because no person was deprived of an opportunity to participate,

the technical defect in the Board's initial certification of the

mailing list constitutes a harmless error under Minn. Stat. 

14.15, subd. 5(1) and must be disregarded.  See also City of

Minneapolis v. Wurtele, 291 N.W.2d 386, 391 (Minn. 1980); Handle

with Care v. Department of Human Services, 406 N.W.2d 518 (Minn.

1987).

 

Need for and Reasonableness of the Proposed Rules in General

 

  11. Among other things, the Administrative Law Judge must

determine if the Board established the need for and

reasonableness of the proposed rules by an affirmative

presentation of fact.  The Board prepared a Statement of Need and

Reasonableness ("SONAR") to support adoption of the proposed

rules.  At the hearing, the Board primarily relied upon the SONAR

as its affirmative presentation of need and reasonableness.  The

SONAR was augmented by a "supplemental" SONAR, comments made by

the Board at the hearing, and its written, post-hearing comments.

 

  To be reasonable a rule must have a rational basis.  Thus

Minnesota Court of Appeals has held a rule to be reasonable if it

is rationally related to the end sought to be achieved by the

statute.  Broen Memorial Home v. Minnesota Department of Human

Services, 364 N.W.2d 436, 440 (Minn.App. 1985); Blocker Outdoor

Advertising Company v. Minnesota Department of Transportation,

347 N.W.2d 88, 91 (Minn.App. 1984).  To establish reasonableness,

the Supreme Court of Minnesota has held that an agency must

"explain on what evidence it is relying and how the evidence

connects rationally with the agency's choice of action to be

taken."  Manufactured Housing Institute v. Pettersen, 347 N.W.2d

238, 244 (Minn. 1984).

 

  This Report is generally limited to a discussion of the rules

that received significant critical comment or otherwise need

discussion.  Due to the large number of students and other

interested individuals who submitted comments and the substantive

uniformity of the comments, only a limited number of the

individuals who filed comments will be individually identified.

Persons or groups who do not find their particular comments

summarized in this Report should know that the Administrative Law

Judge has read and considered each suggestion.  Because nearly

all sections of the proposed rules were unopposed and were

adequately supported by the SONAR, a detailed discussion of each

section of the proposed rules is unnecessary.  The Administrative

Law Judge specifically finds that the need for and reasonableness

of the any provisions not discussed in this Report have been

demonstrated by an affirmative presentation of facts, and that

such provisions are specifically authorized by statute.

 

Statutory Authority

  12. In its Notice of Hearing, the Board asserted that Minn.

Stat.  136C.04, subd. 9, provides authority for the promulgation

of the proposed rules.  Minn. Stat.  136C.04, subd. 9, reads in

pertinent part:

 

  the state board [of technical colleges] may adopt rules under

  chapter 14 for licensure of teaching, support, and supervisory

  personnel in post-secondary and adult vocational education.

 

  The Administrative Law Judge concludes that the Board has

authority under Minn. Stat.  136C.04, subd. 9 to adopt these

rules.

Background

 

  13. Prior to 1983, the State Board of Education established

the teacher licensure requirements for secondary (high school),

post-secondary and adult vocational technical education.  Minn.

Stat.  121.11, subd. 1 and 125.184, subd. 4 (1982).  In 1983,

the State Board of Vocational Technical Education (now the Board

of Technical Colleges) was established, and it was given general

supervisory authority over post-secondary and adult vocational

education.  The new State Board of Vocational Technical Education

was also given statutory authority to license post-secondary and

adult vocational teachers.  See Minn. Laws 1983, c. 258,  61,

subd. 9, codified as Minn. Stat.  136C.04, subd. 9.  Existing

rules of the State Board of Education (see, 5 MCAR 

1.0780-1.0798, later recodified as Minn. Rules, Ch. 3515.)

relating to post-secondary and adult vocational education were,

by statute, transferred to the new State Board of Vocational

Technical Education.  See, Minn. Stat.  15.039, subd. 3 (1982).1

Furthermore, Minn. Laws 1983, c. 258,  63, subd. 1 stated that

the "functions of the state board for vocational education

relating to post-secondary and adult vocational education are

transferred to the state board of vocational technical

education."  It also specifically stated that the rules of the

State Board for Vocational Education governing post-secondary and

adult vocational education licensure were transferred to the

Board of Vocational Technical Education.  The State Board for

Vocational Education referred to in the 1983 Act was, in fact,

the State Board of Education.  Under Minn. Stat.  121.11, subd.

1 (1982) the State Board of Education served as the State Board

for Vocational Education.

 

  14. The proposed rules set standards for licensing persons

seeking to teach general studies and general education in

technical colleges.  Advisory committees were established to add

input in the development of license requirements in both areas.

General studies includes applied math, applied communications,

applied physics, applied chemistry, applied anatomy/ physiology,

first aid instructor, cardio-pulmonary resuscitation (CPR),

developmental math, developmental reading, and occupational

English as a second language (ESL).  The rules also indicate how

existing general studies licenses will be converted to new

licensing categories.  Existing licenses are allowed to transfer

to the new categories in the corresponding subject area.  For

example, a "related math" license will be replaced with an

"applied math" license.  Licensure standards are also proposed

for general education.  A general education teacher can teach a

variety of courses for which the teacher is licensed.  Licensed

fields include biology, chemistry, English, ecology/

environmental science, economics, geography, geology, history,

journalism, math, music, communications, philosophy, physics,

political science, psychology, sociology, and visual arts.  Among

other things, an applicant must

 

 

 

-------------------

 

1.    Minn. Stat.  15.039, subd. 3 relates to the transfer of

      powers among state agencies.  In subdivision 3, it

      requires that rules adopted pursuant to responsibilities

      which are transferred to a new or different agency remain

      effective and must be enforced until amended or replealed

      by the agency to which the powers and responsibilities are

      transferred.meet the occupational and educational

      requirements for general studies license.  However, a

      provisional license provision is proposed for those who

      cannot meet other, new license requirements.

 

General Studies

 

  15. For over ten years, the Board has issued general studies

licenses.  In the past, the licenses have been issued under Minn.

Rules, Ch. 3515 (1991) to individuals holding the appropriate

degree and having the necessary occupational experience.  Chapter

3515 was originally promulgated by the Board of Education acting

as the State Board of Vocational Education.  After the Board

succeeded to the powers of the Board of Education, it became

responsible for the licensure of post-secondary vocational

technical education teachers and "inherited" the Board of

Education's responsibilities and powers under chapter 3515.

Since that time, the Board has begun to develop new rules in

chapter 3700 to supplant those in chapter 3515.

 

  16. The requirements for applicants seeking licensure in

general studies are set out in proposed rule 3700.1200.  Each

subpart of the proposed rules is discussed below.

 

  Subpart 1.

 

  17. Subpart 1 of proposed rule 3700.1200 contains the

qualifications an applicant for a general studies license must

have.  Among other things, an applicant must meet the standards

in part 3700.0100 (general requirements for post-secondary

vocational teachers) and the particular standards for the

specific license sought.  Part 3700.0100 requires, among other

things, that an applicant for licensure comply with parts

3515.0100 to 3515.4400 and 3515.5000.  The Board established that

the licensing requirements in subpart 1 are needed and reasonable

as proposed.  However, the title of the subpart ("Listed here")

has no meaning.  Since the title is not part of the rule itself

this is not a defect.  However, the Board should change the title

to "License Requirements" or something similar.

 

  Subpart 2.  Do not apply

 

  18. Subpart 2 identifies eight rule parts (or portions

thereof) that do not apply to general studies license applicants.

The specific requirements excluded relate to committee review,

occupational experience, demonstration of knowledge,

reexamination, appeals, instructors in related post-secondary

subjects, and licensure charts.  The wording of subpart 2 is

particularly terse.  The rule states "Parts 3515.0100, subpart

25; 3515.4100; *** "do not apply."  The rule would be clearer if

it stated, "The requirements in parts 3515.0100, subpart 25; ***

do not apply to applicants for licensure in general studies."

The change would improve the clarity of the rule and would not

constitute a substantial change.  Also, the title should be

clarified by changing the heading from "Do not apply" to "Rules

not applicable" or Inapplicable rules."

 

  19. Under subpart 1, the new general studies requirements are

in addition to the requirements in part 3700.0100.  Part

3700.0100 states that applicants must comply with parts 3515.0100

to 3515.4400 and 3515.5000.  In subpart 2, some parts of chapter

3515 are excluded.  They include 3515.0100, subp. 25; 3515.4100;

3515.4200; 3515.4300; 3515.4400; 3515.6005, subpart 1; 3515.9920;

and 3515.9941.  Read together, these subparts are confusing.  For

example, subpart 2 states that part 3515.0100, subp. 25 does not

apply to the licensure of general studies teachers.  Subpart 25,

however, is merely a definition.  Because the new general studies

rule contains occupational experience requirements, the Board

apparently does not intend to apply any of the occupational

experience requirements in parts 3515.1200 and 3515.1300 to

general studies teachers.  Apparently, it is the Board's

intention to only require persons applying for a general studies

license to comply with part 3515.2100 and the teaching education

sequence in 3515.1400.  If that is so, the rule should be

clarified by including parts 3515.1200 and 3515.1300 in the

exclusionary language of subpart 2.  Alternatively, and

preferably, the Board should consider eliminating subpart 2 and

changing subpart 1 to include a specific reference to the

additional rules that apply to applicants for a general studies

license.  For example, subpart 1 could state "An applicant for a

license in general studies must only meet the requirements in

this part and the requirements in parts . . . ."

 

  20.The Minnesota Federation of Teachers (MFT) opposed

exclusion of the committee review process in Part 3515.4100 from

the general studies licensure requirements.  The committee review

process allows an applicant who fails to meet the vocational

licensure requirements in Chapter 3515 to petition the

Commissioner of Education for a qualification reevaluation.  That

reevaluation is performed by a committee of at least three people

with specific qualifications in the relevant educational and

vocational areas.  If the applicant's qualifications are found to

be equivalent to licensure standards the license is granted.  MFT

maintains that the Board has not demonstrated the need or

reasonableness of excluding general studies from committee review

.

 

  21. The committee review procedure, which was initially

adopted by the Department of Education acting as the Board for

Vocational Education, authorizes the issuance of a license if the

review committee finds that an individual's qualifications are

equivalent to the licensure standards in Chapter 3515.  The rule

states that an individual who disputes an adverse committee

review recommendation may appeal the recommendation pursuant to

appeal procedures of the Board of Teaching in part 8700.2500.

Because the Board now has exclusive authority to license

post-secondary and adult vocational technical teachers, it is

questionable whether the Commissioner of Education has any

authority to make determinations of equivalency under the rule.

It seems unlikely that any reference to a decision by an

individual, officer or board other than the Technical College

Board has any effect.  However, that issue need not be

considered.  The only issues raised by MFT's objections are

whether applicants for general studies licensure should have the

committee review process available to them.

 

  22. In its first public SONAR,2 which was issued when the

Board attempted to adopt the rules without a public hearing, the

Board stated:

 

  Since the technical colleges do not have the authority to

  grant degrees or degree equivalencies it is reasonable and

  necessary not to allow the technical colleges to grant degree

  equivalen- cies through the process of committee review.

  Therefore committee review for this credential is no longer an

  option.

 

SONAR for General Studies, at 3.

  23. The Board received a large number of comments on general

studies after publication of its notice proposing to adopt rules

without a hearing.  Therefore, it prepared a supplemental SONAR

to address issues raised in those comments.  In its supplemental

SONAR, the Board discussed the need for committee review stating:

 

  Committee review is a provision whereby a committee of

  specified individuals evaluates the qualifications of an

  applicant, [sic] who has been denied a license because the

  evidence of qualifications presented by the candidate for

  licensure did not meet the qualifications identified in the

  rule.

 

  The option of committee review is not provided for in the

  general studies rule in order to eliminate duplication of

  effort, reduce costs and provide a reevaluation process.

 

  A process for the revaluation [sic] of evidence of courses and

  majors exists in the form of a degree equivalency option under

  Minnesota Rules, part 3515.0100, subp. 17.  This option is

  implemented in the following manner.  If a candidate believes

  that the education (degrees and/or courses) which they are

  presenting may not clearly demonstrate that they have met the

  requirements established in the rule they may seek a

  determination of equivalent preparation from any

  post-secondary institution authorized to grant the

  corresponding degree or major.  Under this process the

  candidate is free to select the institution and department and

  work directly with representatives of the institution and

  department.  The only restriction placed upon the choice of

  institution and department is that the institution is

  authorized to grant the degree/major required in the licensure

  field.  This process may be conducted before or during the

  original application process, thus increasing the efficiency

  of the process and reducing costs for  the

  applicant.  When the institution/department has completed the

  review and granted the equivalency, documentation of that

  decision is provided by the candidate to the State Board

  Licensure Unit.  The statement of equivalency is accepted by

  the State Board as evidence that the candidate does meet the

  educational requirement stated in the rule and the license

  would be granted.                                            

 

 

 

 

 

-------------------

 

2.    MFT asserted that the language supporting this rule was

      different in a prior SONAR.  The Board speculated that the

      MFT may have seen a draft copy of the first SONAR.  There

      is no reason to consider agency drafts in determining the

      need and reasonableness of a rule.  The agency is entitled

      to formally determine what theory it will pursue and what

      facts it will present to support its proposed rules.

      Therefore, drafts will not be

      considered.                                               P

                                                               

                                                                r

                                                               

                                                                o

                                                               

                                                                v

                                                               

                                                                i

                                                               

                                                                d

                                                               

                                                                i

                                                               

                                                                n

                                                               

                                                                g

                                                               

                                                                f

                                                               

                                                                o

                                                               

                                                                r

                                                               

                                                                c

                                                               

                                                                o

                                                               

                                                                m

                                                               

                                                                m

                                                               

                                                                i

                                                               

                                                                t

                                                               

                                                                t

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                r

                                                                

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                v

                                                                

                                                                i

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                                

                                                                w

                                                               

                                                                i

                                                                

                                                                n

                                                               

                                                                t

                                                                

                                                                h

                                                               

                                                                i

                                                                

                                                                s

                                                               

                                                                r

                                                                

                                                                u

                                                               

                                                                l

                                                                

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                w

                                                                

                                                                h

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                                

                                                                n

                                                               

                                                                t

                                                               

                                                                h

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                p

                                                               

                                                                r

                                                               

                                                                o

                                                               

                                                                c

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                s

                                                               

                                                                s

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                s

                                                               

                                                                f

                                                               

                                                                o

                                                               

                                                                r

                                                               

                                                                d

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                g

                                                               

                                                                r

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                /

                                                               

                                                                m

                                                               

                                                                a

                                                                

                                                                j

                                                               

                                                                o

                                                                

                                                                r

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                                

                                                                q

                                                               

                                                                u

                                                                

                                                                i

                                                               

                                                                v

                                                                

                                                                a

                                                               

                                                                l

                                                                

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                n

                                                                

                                                                c

                                                               

                                                                y

                                                                

                                                                a

                                                               

                                                                l

                                                                

                                                                r

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                                

                                                                a

                                                               

                                                                d

                                                               

                                                                y

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                x

                                                               

                                                                i

                                                               

                                                                s

                                                               

                                                                t

                                                               

                                                                s

                                                               

                                                                i

                                                               

                                                                s

                                                               

                                                                a

                                                               

                                                                n

                                                               

                                                                u

                                                               

                                                                n

                                                               

                                                                n

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                c

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                s

                                                               

                                                                s

                                                               

                                                                a

                                                               

                                                                r

                                                               

                                                                y

                                                               

                                                                d

                                                                

                                                                u

                                                               

                                                                p

                                                                

                                                                l

                                                               

                                                                i

                                                                

                                                                c

                                                               

                                                                a

                                                                

                                                                t

                                                               

                                                                i

                                                                

                                                                o

                                                               

                                                                n

                                                                

                                                                o

                                                               

                                                                f

                                                                

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                f

                                                                

                                                                f

                                                               

                                                                o

                                                                

                                                                r

                                                               

                                                                t

                                                                

                                                                .

                                                                

                                                                D

                                                               

                                                                u

                                                               

                                                                p

                                                               

                                                                l

                                                               

                                                                i

                                                               

                                                                c

                                                               

                                                                a

                                                               

                                                                t

                                                               

                                                                i

                                                               

                                                                o

                                                               

                                                                n

                                                               

                                                                o

                                                               

                                                                f

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                f

                                                               

                                                                f

                                                               

                                                                o

                                                               

                                                                r

                                                               

                                                                t

                                                               

                                                                i

                                                               

                                                                s

                                                               

                                                                p

                                                                

                                                                a

                                                               

                                                                r

                                                                

                                                                t

                                                               

                                                                i

                                                                

                                                                c

                                                               

                                                                u

                                                                

                                                                l

                                                               

                                                                a

                                                                

                                                                r

                                                               

                                                                l

                                                                

                                                                y

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                                

                                                                v

                                                               

                                                                i

                                                                

                                                                d

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                                

                                                                n

                                                               

                                                                t

                                                                

                                                                b

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                                

                                                                c

                                                               

                                                                a

                                                               

                                                                u

                                                               

                                                                s

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                f

                                                               

                                                                a

                                                               

                                                                c

                                                               

                                                                u

                                                               

                                                                l

                                                               

                                                                t

                                                               

                                                                y

                                                               

                                                                f

                                                               

                                                                r

                                                               

                                                                o

                                                               

                                                                m

                                                               

                                                                d

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                g

                                                               

                                                                r

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                /

                                                                

                                                                m

                                                               

                                                                a

                                                                

                                                                j

                                                               

                                                                o

                                                                

                                                                r

                                                               

                                                                g

                                                                

                                                                r

                                                               

                                                                a

                                                                

                                                                n

                                                               

                                                                t

                                                                

                                                                i

                                                               

                                                                n

                                                                

                                                                g

                                                               

                                                                i

                                                                

                                                                n

                                                               

                                                                s

                                                                

                                                                t

                                                               

                                                                i

                                                                

                                                                t

                                                               

                                                                u

                                                                

                                                                t

                                                               

                                                                i

                                                               

                                                                o

                                                               

                                                                n

                                                               

                                                                s

                                                               

                                                                w

                                                               

                                                                o

                                                               

                                                                u

                                                               

                                                                l

                                                               

                                                                d

                                                               

                                                                b

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                a

                                                               

                                                                s

                                                               

                                                                k

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                d

                                                               

                                                                t

                                                               

                                                                o

                                                               

                                                                s

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                r

                                                               

                                                                v

                                                                

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                o

                                                                

                                                                n

                                                               

                                                                t

                                                                

                                                                h

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                                

                                                                c

                                                               

                                                                o

                                                                

                                                                m

                                                               

                                                                m

                                                                

                                                                i

                                                               

                                                                t

                                                                

                                                                t

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                                

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                r

                                                                

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                v

                                                                

                                                                i

                                                               

                                                                e

                                                               

                                                                w

                                                               

                                                                .

                                                               

                                                               

  The cost associated with the reevaluation through the

  degree/major equivalency option are [sic] less than those

  which occur when a committee review is conducted by the Board

  Office.  In addition to the $50.00 application fee, a fee of

  $100.00 is charged for committee review in those licenses

  where it is used as an option for reevaluation.

 

Supplemental SONAR for General Studies, at 2-3.

 

  24. MFT asserts that the equivalency reevaluation is not a

substitute for committee review because the instructor who seeks

committee review typically does not hold a degree in the field

for which equivalency would be sought.  MFT acknowledges that the

existing rules require instructors to hold such a degree to be

eligible to teach such courses.  According to the MFT, the lack

of such a degree should not be a bar to teaching such courses,

because the credits for general studies courses do not transfer

to other institutions but are taken only to support vocational

studies at the technical college.  MFT also stated that the Board

has allowed persons not holding the appropriate degree to teach

general studies courses in the past.  Those objections have no

merit.

 

  25. General studies credits are not transferable to state

colleges or community colleges.  Therefore, the qualifications of

persons teaching those courses in technical colleges arguably

need not be as stringent as the qualifications of persons

teaching courses whose credits do transfer.  However, this fact

does not mean that the Board must abandon all standards for

instructors of general studies courses or that it cannot require

the same standards of them as are required of community college

instructors.  Whether such courses are taken to support

vocational education or for independent reasons, the instructors

must be held to a standard of educational ability and

credentialing necessary to appropriately train students taking

technical college courses.  Because the proposed rules for

general studies licensure contain the same academic requirements

which were established over ten years ago, the need and

reasonableness of those educational requirements need not be

established in this proceeding.  Under Minn. Rules, pt.

1400.0500, subp. 1C. (1991) an agency proposing amendments to

existing rules need not demonstrate the need for and

reasonableness of previously adopted rules which are not affected

by newly proposed amendments.

 

  26. Under the committee review process in part 3515.4100, a

license applicant may follow the committee review process in

order to establish that the applicant's education or experience

are equivalent to license standards under that rule.  There is no

evidence that anyone has been granted a license who does not have

the appropriate degree under that rule.  Assuming that in a

particular case a person's education could be found equivalent to

degree requirements not strictly met, the Administrative Law

Judge is still persuaded that elimination of the committee review

process is necessary and reasonable.  Applicants who do not have

the necessary degree, but who have equivalent educational

experience, may obtain verification of that experience from any

institution accredited to grant a degree or major in the area

required for licensure.  Consequently, having a second,

duplicative process, is unnecessary.  The Board's decision to

eliminate the committee review process for general studies

licenses is necessary and reasonable because it eliminates the

unnecessary duplication of procedures.  Furthermore, to the

extent that the committee review process would authorize the

licensure of persons not having the necessary baccalaureate

degree, or its equivalent, elimination of that process simply

guarantees that persons teaching in general studies have the

appropriate educational background.  It has always been the

Board's position that general studies teachers must have an

appropriate baccalaureate degree.  Preserving that policy is

necessary and reasonable.  The fact that courses taught by

properly educated general studies teachers in technical colleges

are not transferable does not mean that the qualifications of

general studies teachers in technical colleges should be relaxed.

 

  27. The existing requirements for general studies teachers

apparently have not been met by some current instructors.  MFT

asserts that the Board has been aware of this situation and is,

therefore, estopped from enforcing those requirements.  No case

law or treatise has been cited to support the claim of estoppel.

To establish a claim of estoppel, MFT must show that the Board

made representations which were reasonably relied upon and will

cause harm if the estoppel is not granted.  Brown v. Minnesota

Department of Public Welfare, 368 N.W.2d 906, 910 (Minn.

1985)(citing Northern Petrochemical Co. v. United States Fire

Insurance Co., 277 N.W.2d 408, 410 (Minn. 1979)).  When estoppel

is sought against the government, the harm to the party asserting

it must be balanced against the harm to the public interest if

the estoppel is granted.

  28. At the hearing, the Board indicated that it has not

pursued enforcement actions absent complaints about the

credentials of an instructor hired to fill a technical college

position.  MFT asserts that unlicensed instructors have obtained

positions based on the perceived nonenforcement of the existing

rule.  The passivity of the Board, if any, in ignoring the use of

improperly credentialed instructors is not a representation on

which an unqualified person could reasonably rely.  No evidence

in the record shows that the Board affirmatively advised

unqualified instructors that they need not comply with the

existing licensure rules.  The instructors cited by MFT as "at

risk" under the proposed rules must have reasonably relied upon a

representation to establish estoppel.  If the Board's failure to

act constitutes a representation, the instructors' failure to

obtain the credentials expressly required by rule remains

unreasonable.  Reliance upon nonenforcement of the Board's rule

simply is not reasonable in light of the lack of any Board

statements and the express language of the rule.

 

  29. Even if all three elements of estoppel existed in this

case, wrongful conduct by the Board must be shown before any

balancing between private and public harm is undertaken.  In the

Matter of Westling Manufac- turing, Inc., 422 N.W.2d 328, 332-33

(Minn. Ct. App. 1989.  There is no evidence of wrongful conduct

by the Board.  For some years, the Board has treated its rules on

licensure as enforcable only after a complaint.  This approach is

a legitimate exercise of discretion, given the Board's perception

of the problems posed by instructors with improper credentials

and the extent of the Board's resources.  Although reasonable

persons could disagree regarding the efficacy of the Board's

conduct, its conduct was not wrongful.

 

  30. Assuming that the elements of estoppel and wrongful

conduct by the Board had been shown, a balancing test must be

conducted weighing the harm to the party and the harm to the

public if estoppel is granted or denied.  In this case the harm

to the instructors is that they will be excluded from teaching

some general studies courses in technical colleges.  The harm to

the public takes three forms.  Students are denied courses taught

by properly credentialed instructors.  Technical colleges are

harmed by lowering the standards of the credentialing process for

their faculty.  Properly credentialed instructors are denied the

benefit of positions which are held by instructors without those

credentials. The harm to the improperly credentialed instructors,

occurs merely through the application of existing standards.  The

proposed rule does not change the existing standard, it merely

applies that standard.  The harm to the public outweighs the

private harm and thus estoppel is inappropriate.

  31. MFT argued that since the improperly credentialed

instructors have been teaching general studies courses

"successfully" for a number of years, it is unreasonable to

require these instructors to meet the minimum standards in the

proposed rules.  The reasonableness of the rule, however, is not

measured by whether individuals may or may not qualify under a

rule.  Rather, the rule must be measured objectively.  In

Mammenga v. Dept. of Human Services, 442 N.W.2d 786, 789-90

(Minn. 1989), the Minnesota Supreme Court stated:

 

  The rule itself is unreasonable (and therefore invalid) when

  it fails to comport with substantive due process because it is

  not rationally related to the objective sought to be achieved.

                              * * *

 

          The mere fact, however, that the application of a rule

  may yield a harsh or undesirable result in a particular case

  does not make the rule invalid.  [citations omitted].  To say

  a rule is "invalid as applied" means that the rule is invalid

  if, as employed, it is unreasonable in a due process sense,

  i.e., that the rule is not rationally related to the

  legislative ends sought to be achieved. . . [citations

  omitted].

 

MFT's arguments that elimination of committee review is

inappropriate due to the fact that some general studies teachers

currently employed at technical colleges do not have the

appropriate baccalaureate degree or its equivalent must be

rejected.  The argument confuses the issues properly considered

in a contested case proceeding and in a rulemaking proceeding.

The rule is clearly appropriate in its future application to

persons who have not been teaching general studies courses at

technical colleges without the appropriate educational

experience.  As to all persons seeking licensure who do not

currently hold a teaching position at a technical college the

rule is clearly necessary and reasonable.  It should be approved

on that ground even if the Board were estopped from applying it

in a particular case on the grounds of estoppel.  In this

proceeding, individual claims of estoppel cannot be adjudicated.

Therefore, it is appropriate to approve the rule. If application

of the rule to a particular individual is subsequently challenged

on the grounds of estoppel, the challenging applicants

entitlement to licensure and the applicant's claims of estoppel

can be adjudicated.  If the Board is estopped from applying

licensure requirements in a particular case, the rule is still

valid in all other cases.

  The legislative end sought to be achieved by the general

studies rule is the maintenance of appropriate standards for

teaching general studies courses in technical colleges.

Requiring a degree or significant number of credits in the field

is rationally related to establishing standards for instructors.

Eliminating a method by which persons without such qualifications

obtain approval to teach those courses is also rationally related

to maintaining standards.

 

  Subpart 3.  Occupational Experience

 

  32. The existing general studies license requirements ensure

that persons with direct, "hands-on" experience in particular

areas of expertise are on the faculty of the State Technical

College system.  The Board has concluded, however, that qualified

persons were being excluded from teaching by overly restrictive

occupational experience requirements.  General Studies SONAR, at

3.  Therefore, the Board has proposed five different ways for

meeting the occupational experience requirement.  The first is

completion of a three credit course in applied occupational

concepts; second is 500 hours of occupational experience in the

program area; third is current licensure as an instructor in an

occupational program area; fourth is completion of an approved

internship sponsored by the Board.  The fifth and final (Subpart

3(C)) alternative is:

 

  40 clock hours verified by an authorized administrator in a

  combination of all the following:(1)ex officio occupational advisory committees;

  (2) business/industrial site visits; and             

  (3) occupational program classroom/laboratory observation.

 

The five alternative ways of meeting the occupational experience

requirements necessary for licensure in general studies were

shown to be reasonable and needed.  However, the alternative

found in Subpart 3C of the rule should be clarified.  It is not

clear, for example, who an authorized administrator is.  If it is

a technical college administrator, the rules should say that.

Also, the rule should state whether the 40 clock hours can be

earned in any combination of the three subitems.  If it can, the

words "any combination" rather than "a combination" should be

used.  In order to clarify the rule, the Administrative Law Judge

suggests that it be rewritten to read as follows: 

 

  40 clock hours of participation, verified by an authorized

  technical college administrator, in any combination of the

  following:

 

          (1)  ex officio occupational advisory committees;

 

          (2)  business/industrial site visits; or(3)  occupational program classroom/laboratory

                    observation.

 

While participation is a broad term, it does indicate some formal

connection with the three listed options.  Whatever language is

selected for item C, the language used must inform the regulated

public what experience meets the occupational experience

requirement.

 

Proposed Rule 3700.1210 - General Studies, Applied Math, Etc.

 

  33. Proposed rule 3700.1210 sets the specific standard for

instructors who teach in the general studies area of applied

math.  No commentator objected to any of the specific standards

in this rule.  However, the title of subpart 1 ("May teach") is

awkward.  While the title cannot constitute a defect in the

proposed rule, the Judge suggests that the Board replace it with

"Eligible teacher."  This comment applies to all the rule parts

for a specific field.  Proposed rule 3700.1210 is needed and

reasonable.

 

Proposed Rule on Application

 

  34. Commentators responding after the first publication of the

proposed rules questioned how existing licenses were to be

treated.  The Board added additional language before the second

rule publication to meet these concerns.  At the end of proposed

rule 3700.1280, entitled "General Studies, Occupational English

as a Second Language," the Board has placed rule language

entitled "Application."  A further title states "Conversion of

Existing Instructors Licenses."  The first paragraph of the body

of the rule relates to bilingual, bicultural reading and math

licenses and how those licenses may be retained or converted to

the general studies equivalents of those licenses.  The second

paragraph contains a table indicating existing license titles and

the new titles for those licenses.  The Board has shown this rule

to be needed and reasonable.  The rule would be clearer if it was

set out as a separate rule part with each paragraph designated as

a subpart.

 

Repealer

 

  35. In response to the first publication of the proposed

rules, some commentators questioned the repeal of Minn. Rule

3515.9942, a licensure chart.  The Board indicated that three of

the licenses, Supplemental Support/Technical Tutor, Interpreter

for the Deaf, and Occupational English as a Second Language, were

either repealed, removed, or are in the proposed rule.  However,

to meet the commentators concerns, the Board altered the language

in the repealer to state that rule 3515.9942 "no longer applies

to part 3700.1280."  The repealer, as amended, is necessary and

reasonable, but it would be preferable to include the quoted

language in Subpart 2.

 

 

                        GENERAL EDUCATION

 

Proposed Rule 3700.1205 - General Education License

 

  36. General education credits are earned by students seeking

an Associate of Applied Science Degree.  The existing practice

for general education credits has been to have the course taught

under a cooperative arrangement with community colleges or the

State University system.  Under such arrangements a licensed

instructor from the community college or state university teach

general education courses.  Until recently, no technical college

has been eligible to provide general education courses by its own

instructors for students to earn those credits.

 

  37. Under Minn. Stat.  136C.042, subd. 1, the Board may

"approve, disapprove, or modify a plan for awarding associate

degrees at a technical college."  An agreement has authorized

Alexandria Technical College and Hutchinson Technical College to

offer courses in general education for which degree credits may

be earned.  Supplemental SONAR on General Education, at 1.  The

Board has indicated that the authorization is for up to 32

general education credits.  Id.  These credits are eligible for

transfer to Minnesota community colleges or the State University

system.  Id.

 

  38. Up to the present, technical colleges have not had

instructors licensed in general education.  Since Alexandria

Technical College and Hutchinson Technical College are now

providing general education courses for which licensed

instructors are typically required, the Board has proposed that

licensure be required for instructors in general education

courses in technical colleges.  Proposed rule 3700.1205

establishes the standards of this licensure.

 

  Subpart 1 - May teach

 

  39. The disciplines for which licensed general education

instructors are able to teach courses are set out in subpart 1 of

proposed rule 3700.1205.  Eighteen fields are listed which are in

the science, social science, and humanities areas.  No one

objected to subpart 1.  As discussed above, the Board may choose

to change the title to "Eligible teacher."  Subpart 1 is needed

and reasonable.

 

  Subpart 2 - Other Requirements

 

  40. Two other rules are cited in subpart 2 as requirements for

technical college instructors seeking licensure to teach general

education courses.  These requirements are parts 3700.0100

(general requirements for post-secondary vocational teachers) and

3700.1200, subp. 3 (occupational experience).  The Board

characterizes these rules as "generic to all general studies

general education staff."  SONAR on General Education, at 2.

Part 3700.0100 is presently a promulgated rule.  The Board has

shown that the requirements are needed and reasonable to

establish appropriate standards for general education

instructors.

 

  Subpart 3 - Educational Experience Requirement

 

  41. Persons seeking licensure as general education instructors

are required by subpart 3 to have minimal educational experience

in a particular field.  As proposed, the minimum educational

experience is a master's degree with either a major in the

assigned field or 23 graduate credits in the assigned field.  The

Board arrived at these standards after consultation with staff at

the community colleges, technical colleges, and the State

University system.  SONAR on General Education, at 3.

  42. Larry Anderson, Ann Craigmile, and Gary Albrecht objected

to the requirements of subpart 3 as applied to instructors who

have taught courses at the technical colleges for years.  Some of

these instructors will have few opportunities to obtain 23

graduate credits in their field.  Other instructors with the

opportunity to obtain those credits may choose not to do so just

for the opportunity to teach a few general education courses.

Anderson stated that he was not interested in taking additional

courses, since he is only two years away from retirement.

Craigmile and Albrecht asserted that the rule will have the

effect of depriving some instructors of their livelihood.

Anderson, Albrecht, and Craigmile urged the Board to exempt

existing teachers from the educational requirement for general

education.

 

  43. The Board responded that some instructors teaching general

education courses in the Alexandria and Hutchinson Technical

Colleges are now doing so without licenses.  The credits obtained

by students in courses taught by unlicensed instructors are not

transferable.  This situation has caused an undue hardship for

students, who are forced to retake identical courses taught by

licensed instructors to obtain the credits necessary for meeting

degree requirements.  To ensure that instructors without master's

degrees or the appropriate graduate credits have some

alternative, the Board has proposed a provisional status for

existing instructors.  See, Finding 45, below.

 

  44. Where technical colleges have altered their educational

mission by offering general education classes taught by their own

instructors, it is needed and reasonable to impose the same

licensure standards as the standards met by general education

instructors in community colleges or the State University system.

Without adequate minimum standards, transferring students will be

harmed by having to retake coursework already completed, but

taught by an unlicensed instructor.  Subpart 3 is needed and

reasonable, as proposed.

 

  Subpart 4 - Provisional Status

 

  45. For instructors who do not meet the licensure standards

set in subpart 3, the Board offers provisional licensure.  The

standards for provisional licensure are established in subpart 4.

These standards are:

 

  A.  a minimum of 15 quarter credits taught in the field within

      the past five years;

 

  B.  a bachelor's degree (or some higher degree);

 

  C.  an individual education plan approved by the college

      administration;

 

  D.  application for provisional licensure is made within one

      year of the rule taking effect.

 

Instructors who meet these standards may receive a provisional,

three-year license.  Subpart 4 is needed and reasonable.

However, item C is unclear.  If there is some rule that governs

individual education plans, it should be cited.  If there is no

such rule, the rules should state what the individual education

plan must do.  For example, if it is a plan by which an

individual will obtain necessary educational experience to be

licensed as a general education instructor, it must say so.

  Dick Wagenknecht, Math Director for St. Paul Technical

College, objected to the 15 credit minimum to teach remedial

math.  Wagenknecht also opposed the removal of work experience

from the licensure provision.  The Board pointed out that

provisional licensure is new and is intended only for existing

instructors.  The minimum qualification of 15 quarter credits

within the past five years is intended to provide assurance that

only qualified instructors will obtain provisional licensure.

Recognition of applications for a provisional license to one year

after the rules take effect ensures that only current instructors

are eligible for provisional licensure.  Since the work

experience requirement already exists for current instructors,

that requirement is not being "dropped" for provisional

licensure.  The Board has shown that the provisional licensure

provision of subpart 4 and the renewal provision in subpart 5 are

needed and reasonable.

 

 

  Based upon the foregoing Findings of Fact, the Administrative

Law Judge makes the following:

 

 

                           CONCLUSIONS

 

  1.  The Minnesota State Board of Technical Colleges ("the

Board") gave proper notice of this rulemaking hearing.

 

  2.  The Board has substantially fulfilled the procedural

requirements of Minn. Stat.  14.14, subds. 1, 1a and 2 (1990),

and all other procedural requirements of law or rule so as to

allow it to adopt the proposed rules.

 

  3.  The Board has demonstrated its statutory authority to

adopt the proposed rules, and has fulfilled all other substantive

requirements of law or rule within the meaning of Minn. Stat. 

14.05, subd. 1, 14.15, subd. 3, and 14.50 (i) and (ii) (1990).

 

  4.  The Board has demonstrated the need for and reasonableness

of the proposed rules by an affirmative presentation of facts in

the record within the meaning of Minn. Stat.  14.14, subd. 2

and 14.50 (iii) (1990).

 

  5.  No additions or amendments to the proposed rules were

suggested by the Board after publication of the proposed rules in

the State Register and thus the rules are not substantially

different from the proposed rules as published in the State

Register within the meaning of Minn. Stat.  14.15, subd. 3

(1990), and Minn. Rules pts. 1400.1000, subp. 1, and 1400.1100

(1991).

 

  6.  Any Findings which might properly be termed Conclusions

and any Conclusions which might properly be termed Findings are

hereby adopted as such.

 

  7.  A finding or conclusion of need and reasonableness in

regard to any particular rule subsection does not preclude and

should not discourage the Board from further modification of the

proposed rules based upon an examination of the public comments,

provided that no substantial change is made from the proposed

rules as originally published, and provided that the rule finally

adopted is based upon facts appearing in this rule hearing

record.

 

  Based upon the foregoing Conclusions, the Administrative Law

Judge makes the following: 

                         RECOMMENDATION

 

  IT IS HEREBY RECOMMENDED that the proposed rules be adopted

consistent with the Findings and Conclusions made above.

 

Dated this 12th day of January, 1994.

 

 

 

                                                                 

    

                               JON L. LUNDE

                               Administrative Law Judge

 

 

 

 

Reported:  Tape Recorded (No Transcript Made)